There are challenges in LibreOffice, as Sun managed the community so poorly for many years, but things are improving.

I say what you are saying is completel bullshit. It’s typical “Open Sores” appologist drible.

Almost everyone is using Microsoft, and their office suite, and hardly anyone is using Libre or Open Office, and MS embeds all the fonts into all the documents, and Libre and Open Office don’t.

And it’s not “the office suite” that is bears the responsibility for this, it’s the morons who program it.

Given that Libre Office and The Document Foundation are composed of the same incestiouly intertwined committee members, and the appologists for them, say “Oh we don’t think that font embedding is in the Open Document Standards”… so Libre Office doesn’t include them… because….

“Hello Moron Mania – as much as I utterly HATE the people in Microsoft for almost everything I can possibly think of – I want software that helps me to get my job done, not bullshit that is built by fuckwits.”

Yes, there are some IBM employees who have been helpful to Linux, but that doesn’t mean all are. Those who created this project are actually hurting.

The OpenOffice team was disbanded by Oracle in the sense that basically the entire team of 50-100 full-time engineers who had been building this monstrosity were laid off. If the top 100 Linux kernel developers left the project, would you not say it was in trouble? So calling this the natural place for OpenOffice even though the core team is gone is inaccurate.

LibreOffice has I think more core developers remaining, and could use IBM’s help to hire more. Instead, IBM is rebuilding from scratch everything that Libreoffice has just done. That is what they spent their first year doing. There is a ton of duplication of effort between this Apache project and the LibreOffice project. This is the biggest reason why this incubation plan is a mistake.

LibreOffice offers their code to Apache and everyone else. It is Apache who refuses to take it. You make it seem like LibreOffice is the impediment, when it is Apache policies. You are still confused about who is the impediment.

Yes, OpenOffice had a plan. I said their plan was bad, not that they didn’t have one. The industry had the plans for HD-DVD and Blu-ray. Were those plans good? Google Knol had a plan, how was that?

Apache is a good organization, it is the IBM employees who cause me to say that this incubation project doesn’t have good people. They poison the project.

I agree with your sentiment that both sides should work together. The key is how you go about such a thing. Note that “showing respect” is not the problem. The problem is that a fork is social engineering. If you create a license that prevents you from sharing code, and you create separate teams, bug databases, etc. to work on the same problems, you are making a mess that you can’t fix by being nice.

“Showing respect” is not how you fix this situation. You fix it by (for example) having the LibreOffice code and license become the mainline and merging The Document Foundation and Apache. Your words about attitude demonstrate that you don’t yet understand the inefficiencies. All I can say is that this incubation project wastes resources of both sides more and more every day. So have hope that if don’t appreciate this problem now, you may as the tally adds up.

I don’t believe you read my whole post at the top because some of what you write I have already rebutted there.

IBM employees have consistently been among the top contributors to Linux for years, see the Linux Foundation reports. Just to let you know Microsoft was in the top 20 contributers to Linux this year. Apparently the Linux developers do not have a problem with either IBM or Microsoft contributing as long it is on the right terms.

Openoffice.org was still up and very active. There were many users of the software, the software could still be downloaded, the source code available, the forums and website still active and used. That doesn’t meet the definition of “disbanded”. Both legally and in fact, Openoffice.org was still a functioning organization. Trademark, code, copyrights, website, users, documentation, forums, etc. Apache OpenOffice is OpenOffice, LibreOffice is a fork of OpenOffice. Apache OpenOffice does not need to “rebuild” what LibreOffice has done. Some duplication of probably usual when a fork exists, unless both the fork and the original are willing to work together closely. As it is LibreOffice can use the Apache OpenOffice code when they wish, so it is only the reverse that would need to be resolved. Even then, developers with LibreOffice can still give their code to Apache OpenOffice as well since neither Apache or LibreOffice require copyright assignment. Thus the only real cause of duplication of effort would be the developers of LibreOffice, as copyright holders, decision.

Apache OpenOffice has a plan, its on the web, as with other incubator projects that are part of the Apache Software Foundation. There are also impressive people behind Apache OpenOffice, so I hope you were not attempting to imply otherwise. After all, the word “impressive” is rather subjective.

The reality is starting LibreOffice was a reasonable and justifiable decision, and even continuing LibreOffice is reasonable. However, the best for both LibreOffice and Apache OpenOffice at this point, is for both groups to work together to the fullest extent possible, and show respect for the members of both groups to further both the needs of the users and the opensource in general.

People attack IBM because of how their employees behave. It is a big company, and some of their employees are unhelpful to Linux. Linux would be better off if this project had never been created. This is something Microsoft would want IBM to do. If you are actually helping your enemies more than you are helping your friends, does that deserve some negative response?

The OpenOffice project was basically disbanded. All that is left is a trademark and a copy of the code. The idea that this should be given to Apache to rebuild what LibreOffice had just created is pure duplication of effort.

Linux distros jumped on board with LibreOffice because of the impressive people behind it, and because they had a good reason for a fork and a good plan. This Apache incubation project is missing all of those.

Apache OpenOffice license allows the code to flow to libreOffice, the libreOffice license does not permit the opposite.

Perhaps the constant attacks on IBM’s contributions to open source from the libreOffice folks had something to do with it.
Considering the efforts that IBM has made to both linux, and other opensource projects, the code they have contributed to a multitude of projects, it is rude. Once again IBM last year IBM was a top contributer to linux.

Apache OpenOffice is openoffice, it isn’t a spin off, it is the original openoffice. That is exactly who IBM should be supporting rather then a spin off.

Now, why did so many linux distributers jump on board with libreoffice is the question that pops into my mind. Do they somehow think it is to their benefit to dis both IBM, a major linux contributer, and Apache – a major opensource foundation?

There are out of band solutions to your scenarios. There is even a w3c web fonts standard that LO could support. In that case, the font is embedded, but it is storing a URL rather than an entire font. That gives a partial solution without the massive bloat problems. Note that it only really works when other apps support this feature, but it is the same way with yours. Anyway, embedding fonts in ODT is a bad idea, even though it is a great idea for PDF, so don’t waste your time hoping for it.

E.g.

1. My kid’s homework/presentation done in Debian + LibreOffice may not look the same when opened in a classroom environment where MS is still the norm.

2. ODF from one office (client/supplier) may not look simliar (especially symbols?) when opened at another. Definitely a show stopper for corporations where top management want to the reports to look nice

Or do I have the understanding all wrong?

May not fully agreed with this link but an interesting viewpoint nevertheless (http://fuckubuntu.blogspot.com/2011/06/open-office-office-libre-font-embedding.html)

Well … this seems to going to change as Michael Meeks himself suggested :

“Interestingly, there is perhaps a middle ground in the category b license.”

“Interestingly, Apache OpenOffice Incubating already has a heavy dependence on code under this license; LibreOffice plans to move wholesale to the category-b Mozilla Public License (MPLv2).”

I accept I am somehow surprised regarding this change … I didn’t expect something like this …

If I haven’t misunderstand this stuff, when LO will change to MPLv2 , Apache guys would be able to pick the whole software and ship it as Apache OpenOffice … which means … picking the better SW, wrap it with the most popular NAME … and come back to business (while LibreOffice will stand on the background) … … … sincerely … I don’t understand it … maybe I am having a bad day …

Regards.

However, when something is free like the Linux kernel it can’t get destroyed like you suggest.